Jump to content


Photo

Enamels, Mica, Lead Free Opaque Enamel, Glassline!?


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 olimpia

olimpia

    Homeowner

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 187 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:oh wow! let's see, my family, stained glass, fused glass, lampwork, painting, woodwork, bikes, motorcyles, planes, golf, mural art.

Posted 07 December 2007 - 11:33 AM

Hello,
I have worked only with traditional stains, but would like to get into enamels. I've gone to my supplier and discovered a whole array of enamels, can anyone help me out with what they are? and how they are used.
I do have a kiln and some experience, but not much, with traditional stains.

Here are my options to get:
    Lead Free High Fire Opaque Enamels, set has yellow, red, blue, black, white.

    Lead Free Low Fire Opaque Enamels, set has green, red, blue, black, white.

    Transparent Enamels (not sure how to apply or medium)

    Glassline Paint Set with tip set and 14 colors

    Glassline Chalk Set with 14 colors (3" long, 3/8" round) (this sounds interesting)

    Mica Powder

    TE Enamels, for float glass, 96 COE, 104 COE

It's all so confusing! I just want something to add to my stained glass, more than likely I need transparency, except for a black to outline.

My thoughts so far are to use transparent enamels and black Glassline, but I have no idea how to use them.

Any help is MUCH Appreciated!!

#2 Flux

Flux

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 145 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Minneapolis
  • Interests:Winter sports, bluegrass, maintaining my 1916 bungalow, a Beefeater martini and oh yes, anything to do with stained glass.

Posted 07 December 2007 - 10:23 PM

C2F,
You may have this book already but "The Art of Painting on Glass" by Albinus Elskus (now deceased) is THE authority for classic techniques of painting on glass. Stains, enamels, design etc. I keep re-reading it.
Mark


#3 kujo

kujo

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:soCal

Posted 07 December 2007 - 11:09 PM

QUOTE(closer2fine @ Dec 7 2007, 08:33 AM) View Post
Hello,
I have worked only with traditional stains, but would like to get into enamels. I've gone to my supplier and discovered a whole array of enamels, can anyone help me out with what they are? and how they are used.
I do have a kiln and some experience, but not much, with traditional stains.

Here are my options to get:
    Lead Free High Fire Opaque Enamels, set has yellow, red, blue, black, white.

    Lead Free Low Fire Opaque Enamels, set has green, red, blue, black, white.

    Transparent Enamels (not sure how to apply or medium)

    Glassline Paint Set with tip set and 14 colors

    Glassline Chalk Set with 14 colors (3" long, 3/8" round) (this sounds interesting)

    Mica Powder

    TE Enamels, for float glass, 96 COE, 104 COE
It's all so confusing! I just want something to add to my stained glass, more than likely I need transparency, except for a black to outline.

My thoughts so far are to use transparent enamels and black Glassline, but I have no idea how to use them.

Any help is MUCH Appreciated!!

You can rent Peter McGrain's videos, they are very detailed and useful.
traditional glass painting 1 video explains in detail the use of enamels and mixing etc.
http://smartflix.com...9/Peter-McGrain

#4 olimpia

olimpia

    Homeowner

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 187 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:oh wow! let's see, my family, stained glass, fused glass, lampwork, painting, woodwork, bikes, motorcyles, planes, golf, mural art.

Posted 08 December 2007 - 09:58 AM

Thank you both!
I do have the book and it is wonderful. I am just confused as to which kind of enamels to get. I will look into the videos.

I bit the bullet and got:

Glassline Paint Set with tip set and 14 colors

Hope I like it!!



#5 Dawnt

Dawnt

    Mister Sister

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,338 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:NY

Posted 10 December 2007 - 06:42 AM

I've used Unique, Fusemaster, Reuche, and Paradise enamels, and by far, my favorites are the Paradise. I bought both pre-mixed and powders, though I tend to use the pre-mixed more, thinned with clove oil.

The Paradise enamels have really wonderful intense color and apply like oil paints, and they fire up to look like what you see as you are painting.

I've not tried transparent enamels, as with backlight, you can just adjust how heavily you apply to get a degree of transparency.

It IS confusing, but really....you just have to experiment with different things to see what works best for how you want to apply them.

Good luck!

Dawn


#6 olimpia

olimpia

    Homeowner

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 187 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:oh wow! let's see, my family, stained glass, fused glass, lampwork, painting, woodwork, bikes, motorcyles, planes, golf, mural art.

Posted 10 December 2007 - 08:48 PM

Thank you so much Dawn!

I will surely be playing with these, although now I'm not so sure what I got ha!

So Glassline are transparent enamels? ... ok... this should be fun.

I bet there's something online that tells you how to use them.. lol

#7 MillenniumArtGlass

MillenniumArtGlass

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 55 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Near Auburn, Northern California
  • Interests:I'm an author, historian and collector of lithography and label art, a professional jazz musician, and recent stained glass artist. I love sushi, fishing, garage sales and living in the mountains. I am from the San Francisco Bay Area. My wife is a school teacher. I have a website called fruitcratelabels.com relating to my business of the past thirty years. My stained glass website is www.millenniumartglass.com

Posted 12 December 2007 - 04:08 PM

Chiming in... I have spent the past year studying painting on glass, as I think you already know. I bought several books including Albinas' and the Seymours and Dick Millard's work, and Peter McGrain's two books and video. Then I went to Reusche's website and FuseMaster's and got their catalogues and read all i could find. I called several glass painters I found on google and asked about paints and kilns from them, and they were all happy to help. When I studied painting in Portland, I was warned away from lead based enamels due to toxicity issues. So, I bought a starter kit of colors from FuseMaster, just the basic four or five. And, a set of brushes and three colors from Peter McGrain. Then one evening, Phil at Rainbow glass shared with me some Reusche colors, I got 11 different all containing lead. Also, some glass stain. So I looked up "lead" on google and learned about being careful around it. I also read on three glass forums, including this one, eveything i could find (www.warmglass.com is a great venue, too.) Before I dug-in and worked with these, I bit the bullet ($200.) and bought all 24 colors of FuseMaster's LO series, leadfree low fire enamels. THAT was what i was waiting for. I then took 20 small pieces of float glass, determined the tin side with a black light, and found 20 images I liked. I put them all on a light table together and one evening mixed some trace black and started outlining all of them. I fired them all and then came back the next evening and mixed up some blue and put "water" on the images with water scenes, and yellow for blond hair on a couple of the feminine images, and red on some clothes, brown fro trees,and so forth. Then i fired them again. For two weeks i repainted and refired and developed them in simple terms. Once i had that working comfortably, I sat for a couple nights a re-read all about matting. Then i focused on that for a week. Today, I have 50 colors, mostly fusemaster opaques, but also lead-bearing transparents. I have painted tracelines, matting, stippled, airbrushed and worked on 20 images on glass and done 15 firings or so. I kept calling people and re-reading what to expect, from the books. And, although I am still a total beginner, those several weeks were like a crash course. I learned a lot, including some colors darken when re-fired several times. Others fade. I learned the ring mottles dectrystalize when fired (I explained in another article on this forum.) My results: I now feel very confident with the paints and mixing, and the mediums and brushes, and feel I am ready to move up to tougher challenges. There are other paints like Drakenfeld, Paradise, and some enameler's China colors and many others, each with their own foibles, requirementss, safety issues, firing quirks and characteristics. But for now, the set of 24 FM colors offered a huge pallat. They are all mixable with each other, as well, and fire at the same heat. I also found 24 pieces of 1/4" plate glass, 12" x 12" and made a pallat rack for them. Each one has a color on it and some tape telling what it is. That way I can pull out any color at any moment, drop some water on it, mix it, paint and put it away to dry, and grab another. The whole point for me, was to not be timid about it, but to get a bunch of glass, a bunch of paint(s), some brushes, and go for it. I am really excited now and applying what i have learned to my new windows. I could go on, but this is boring you all. So, "closer" and "dawnt", feel free to write or call me anytime and i will be happy to talk with you about this and share what i am (we are) learning. I will post pix of all this on my website, too. Happy holidays. -- Pat www.millenniumartglass.com :)


#8 olimpia

olimpia

    Homeowner

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 187 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:oh wow! let's see, my family, stained glass, fused glass, lampwork, painting, woodwork, bikes, motorcyles, planes, golf, mural art.

Posted 13 December 2007 - 09:53 AM

Thank you so much Pat!
And I might just take you up on your offer of help.
I just got the set of Glassline but I haven't even opened the box. They are a Christmas gift, so I am going to have to wait.

I have just been commissioned a quite intricate Coat of Arms, that needs to fit in a 12" x 18" so this might be a great opportunity to use them, but I better start testing them soon. As I see it I will only need black outline and fill in with red and blue. That's for a central charging lion and some kind of eagle.

I read that the outline goes on the back of the glass and the fill goes on the front? It seems a bit odd to me, I haven't done my research though.

I've attached a photo of what I'm doing. I thought I could use yellow glass, outline with black and fill with blue for the eagle, and use white glass, outline with black and fill with red for the lion.

But if I do the outline on the back, it won't show on the front of colored glass.

How would you approach this one? Or do I just need different paints for this?

The rest of this piece will be copper foil. Boy am I slow at copperfoil!

#9 Dawnt

Dawnt

    Mister Sister

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,338 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:NY

Posted 13 December 2007 - 06:28 PM

I don't outline on the back/fill in front. Sometimes I will outline, fire, then fill, but always on the same side.

Experiment with your blue on yellow. It will probably read a muddy black if you are using opaque pants and green if you are using transparents. The red fill on white should be fine. You may want to consider using float glass, black outline, blue fill and a silver stain for the yellow background.

#10 Flying Spaghetti Monster

Flying Spaghetti Monster

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 57 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Everywhere but Kansas
  • Interests:Noodly appendages, omnipotence, Pastafarianism, stained glass, pirates, and intestinal cramps. Not necessarily in that order.

Posted 14 December 2007 - 09:30 AM

I am taking a glass painting class next year.

closer2fine, I hope you'll be posting a picture in the Gallery when you are done!

#11 olimpia

olimpia

    Homeowner

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 187 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:oh wow! let's see, my family, stained glass, fused glass, lampwork, painting, woodwork, bikes, motorcyles, planes, golf, mural art.

Posted 14 December 2007 - 09:56 AM

Thanks Dawn,
I can see the yellow not working at all, good thing you pointed it out. Although these paints are supposed to be opaque. Gotta do some testing but the silver stain sounds like a viable option.

Of course I will FSM, I'll be happy to post my testing, it will be an adventure for sure!

#12 Dawnt

Dawnt

    Mister Sister

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,338 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:NY

Posted 14 December 2007 - 04:44 PM

Good luck! This should be really beautiful once its done. :D

#13 MillenniumArtGlass

MillenniumArtGlass

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 55 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Near Auburn, Northern California
  • Interests:I'm an author, historian and collector of lithography and label art, a professional jazz musician, and recent stained glass artist. I love sushi, fishing, garage sales and living in the mountains. I am from the San Francisco Bay Area. My wife is a school teacher. I have a website called fruitcratelabels.com relating to my business of the past thirty years. My stained glass website is www.millenniumartglass.com

Posted 17 December 2007 - 05:28 PM

The problem with painting on both sides, is the kiln shelf. You CAN paint on the back side IF the paint matures at a hi heat, higher than the next paints you apply. Then paint on the other side, with LOWER firing paints that mature at lower temperatures Otherwise it will re-liquify and stick to the kiln wash. You should do all the painting on one side or the other, until you have experimanted more. Either way, there are things to remember:

First, on float glass, find the tin side. DON'T paint on that side. Face it forward if you are painting on the back, and do the art work in reverse on the back. That way the front surface is the tin-side you look through and all the painting is on the back. Paint with your Leading color first, then add the backgrounds over it.

If you paint on the FRONT of the glass, You paint the background color first, then build it out to the final leading tones. Apply the paints in reverse order.

Keep in mind to paint on the side that will be AWAY from the weather or environment as much as possible.

Another considerattion is using flash glass, and etching away the outer borders of the work, like a mask..., then painting the colors on float glass, and stacking them atop (behind) each other so they COMBINE in layers to make the final image. You should get Peter McGrain's book "Uncommon Stained Glass" ISBN 0-9629053-1-3 You will be VERY glad you did. It addresses these ideas very nicely, illustrates the techniques, and his work, featured in color, is an inspiration!! He uses a lot of trad painting, with etching, stacking flash-glasses and other techniques. I am starting to experiment with these concepts, too. I found mine on Amazon.com in the used section. If you can't find one, i can get you in touch with Peter and he has some. And, feel free to call with questions. :) -- Pat


#14 MillenniumArtGlass

MillenniumArtGlass

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 55 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Near Auburn, Northern California
  • Interests:I'm an author, historian and collector of lithography and label art, a professional jazz musician, and recent stained glass artist. I love sushi, fishing, garage sales and living in the mountains. I am from the San Francisco Bay Area. My wife is a school teacher. I have a website called fruitcratelabels.com relating to my business of the past thirty years. My stained glass website is www.millenniumartglass.com

Posted 17 December 2007 - 05:38 PM

I forgot... If you paint on EITHER side or both, the stains go on the BOTTOM of the glass (non TIN) side, facing the kiln shelf, as you already know, so the vaporize UP into the glass. In these cases, don't use float glass at all. That avoids the tin issue altogether. I picked up some Lamberts Restoration antique clear, which has a gentle texture and is not floated on tin, so no tin problem. People say "do a lot of experimnting..." which is good. But, there are some rules of the road in glass painting, just like driving, or bowling, or poker, all have a simple set of rules. Working with glass, has some rules we all already know. Painting on glass, has about 20 basic rules, like tin side, painting both sides, stains versus enamels, maturity temperatures, soak-times, "dehydrating" your kiln after using stains and oil-based traces, how to matt correctly, toxic-lead and safety rules and so on. I have done a lot more reading about painting on glass, than i have done painting on glass. But I saved a lot of time and frustration reading the available books before I dove in. And, it has been well worth it!! NOW, when i paint on glass and see someething happen, i know why and how to fix it, and how to avoid it, OR, how to exploit that characteristic of these mediums. :) - Pat




#15 olimpia

olimpia

    Homeowner

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 187 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:oh wow! let's see, my family, stained glass, fused glass, lampwork, painting, woodwork, bikes, motorcyles, planes, golf, mural art.

Posted 03 January 2008 - 09:52 AM

Wow Pat, somehow I missed your second installment of very useful knowledge on glass painting. I think I get the basics about staining, I am just trying out enamels, that's what's getting me.

I just tested these Glassline paints and the results were absolutely horrible!

Ok, yesterday I did some very simple tests. Two circles, one red paint on white glass outlined in black paint, another blue paint on yellow glass outlined in black paint.


The outline is a disgusting gray, the red is a peachy pink, and the blue is actually blue but all the paint is matte, not shiny at all. Took it to 1500, did not deform the glass.

I want to see if I can return these paints. I've been recommended by Dawn that Paradise Paints are wonderful, they apply like oil paints and they stay true to their color. This is really what I want since I can use oil paints quite well.

Hopefully my supplier will take them back and maybe give me a store credit.

Just wanted to report, if anyone has any ideas as to why this happened I'd appreciate it!


OH OH, and I tried my ring saw and I think this will be the way to go. Tack fusing the eagle and lion to the bottom glass. Just not sure how to create the black outline. Although I could use Pebeo or Delta I suppose.




#16 Dawnt

Dawnt

    Mister Sister

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,338 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:NY

Posted 03 January 2008 - 02:35 PM

Oy....sorry about your bad test results! Yikes!

One thing about reds I forgot to mention....you can't use shelf paper with them....a chemical reaction will occur, burning the red out into a brownish color. That may be part of why you got the peachy color.

If you get the Paradise paints, you can outline your lion and eagle pieces with black and fire at the same time you tack fuse. You should get a nice glossy result at those temps.

#17 olimpia

olimpia

    Homeowner

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 187 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:oh wow! let's see, my family, stained glass, fused glass, lampwork, painting, woodwork, bikes, motorcyles, planes, golf, mural art.

Posted 03 January 2008 - 06:11 PM

Thanks Dawn!
I am returning the Glassline, they will give me a store credit although they don't carry the Paradise paints, which I am determined to get now. It seems you can get the premixed ones or dry. Do you prefer one or the other?

I just didn't like the feel of the Glassline paints, just too "gluey" I really want something more like oil paints.

I can use my store credit to get more stains, I only have three, two browns and a trace black, so I can get a red flesh and maybe a blue. I'd rather stick to classic stains and become better at them.

I'll do the outline with Paradise and get a couple of other colors to play with!

Thank you all!

#18 Dawnt

Dawnt

    Mister Sister

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,338 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:NY

Posted 10 January 2008 - 06:48 AM

I have both sets of the paradise. I use the powder with airbrush medium for...well...airbrushing. And the pre-mixed for painting. They are a ball....I like to thin just a tiny bit with clove oil, as they're very thick. You can also thin quite a lot to get a sumi-e brushed look. Very fun stuff.

Let us know how it goes!

#19 kjt

kjt

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 59 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Saint Petersburg, Florida

Posted 07 March 2008 - 09:07 PM

QUOTE(MillenniumArtGlass @ Dec 17 2007, 05:28 PM) View Post
The problem with painting on both sides, is the kiln shelf. You CAN paint on the back side IF the paint matures at a hi heat, higher than the next paints you apply. Then paint on the other side, with LOWER firing paints that mature at lower temperatures Otherwise it will re-liquify and stick to the kiln wash. You should do all the painting on one side or the other, until you have experimanted more. Either way, there are things to remember:

First, on float glass, find the tin side. DON'T paint on that side. Face it forward if you are painting on the back, and do the art work in reverse on the back. That way the front surface is the tin-side you look through and all the painting is on the back. Paint with your Leading color first, then add the backgrounds over it.

If you paint on the FRONT of the glass, You paint the background color first, then build it out to the final leading tones. Apply the paints in reverse order.

Keep in mind to paint on the side that will be AWAY from the weather or environment as much as possible.

Another considerattion is using flash glass, and etching away the outer borders of the work, like a mask..., then painting the colors on float glass, and stacking them atop (behind) each other so they COMBINE in layers to make the final image. You should get Peter McGrain's book "Uncommon Stained Glass" ISBN 0-9629053-1-3 You will be VERY glad you did. It addresses these ideas very nicely, illustrates the techniques, and his work, featured in color, is an inspiration!! He uses a lot of trad painting, with etching, stacking flash-glasses and other techniques. I am starting to experiment with these concepts, too. I found mine on Amazon.com in the used section. If you can't find one, i can get you in touch with Peter and he has some. And, feel free to call with questions. :) -- Pat



Pat,

Thanks for the informative postings. It is so hard to find anything about this type of painting on glass. I am about to embark on this. My kiln is on order (anxiously awaiting delivery). I just ordered 30 colors of FM Transparent Enamels, brushes, and god knows what else....LOL. I have watched the Peter McGrain DVD's and I am so inspired to get started. Since I have no experience with kilns, I have to learn that as well. Currently I do copperfoil glasswork, and really want to expand my possibilities with creativity, and I believe this will do it for me. Funny you should mention a cabinet for holding your paints. I thought of doing the exact same thing! I look forward to reading your postings.

Kev


#20 kujo

kujo

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:soCal

Posted 26 May 2008 - 02:28 PM

QUOTE(Dawnt @ Jan 10 2008, 04:48 AM) View Post
I have both sets of the paradise. I use the powder with airbrush medium for...well...airbrushing. And the pre-mixed for painting. They are a ball....I like to thin just a tiny bit with clove oil, as they're very thick. You can also thin quite a lot to get a sumi-e brushed look. Very fun stuff.

Let us know how it goes!



Dawn,
with the paradise paints going off the market, what is your chioce paint for airbrushing?




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


    Bing (1)