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Patina Ruins Reusche?


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#21 Savant

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 11:59 AM

Doh! lol

My bad

Sav :-)

#22 Theresa

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 12:25 AM

I just finished my panel and I did the wax before the patina. It did keep the patina from staining the glass, no stains on the white and no "halo" look around the solder edges. I forgot to buy soda water so I just washed (with dawn) and rinsed well. The solder lines started out really black but the more I buffed the lighter they seemed to get. Is there such a thing as buffing too much, or was it not using soda water to neutralize? I waxed right after applying the patina, should I have waited a bit???

Thanks!!

#23 Savant

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 03:02 PM

QUOTE(Theresa @ May 14 2008, 10:25 PM) View Post
I just finished my panel and I did the wax before the patina. It did keep the patina from staining the glass, no stains on the white and no "halo" look around the solder edges. I forgot to buy soda water so I just washed (with dawn) and rinsed well. The solder lines started out really black but the more I buffed the lighter they seemed to get. Is there such a thing as buffing too much, or was it not using soda water to neutralize? I waxed right after applying the patina, should I have waited a bit???

Thanks!!

Nice to hear you confirm the protection against patina staining! :- )
Not so nice to hear youíre not pleased with the tone of the patina :-(

Yes, you can buff too much on the final wax application.
Only buff excessively during the pre-patina waxing stage.
It will always lighten up a little, even during the normal post patina cleanup stage, but it sounds like you may have buffed a little too much.

Not using soda water has nothing to do with why it lightened up to much for youíre taste.
Even if you neutralize the patina with soda, the more you buff, the lighter it will get.

Note: The patina will keep reacting if itís not neutralized. Itís very important to neutralize the patina!
If you donít, you will start to see a white powder like oxide build up ďonĒ and ďaroundĒ the solder seams in a few days if not already. This applies to patina used on came as well.
As long as the panel was dry before applying the final LIGHT coat of wax, you waited long enough. Make sure the wax has dried to a powder state before lightly buffing to a shine.

It wonít hurt to patina it over again and neutralize it. It will only help.

To correct this, re-patina youíre project again just as it sits right now.
You have plenty of protective wax buildup already to resist glass staining.
But you first need to get some baking soda!!!
Add 1/3 cup soda to 1 gallon of warm water.
No need to rub the soda water in. Just let the soda rag glide over the surface with no pressure.
Keep the remaining drying, final waxing and buffing to a minimum during this last stage of cleanup,
as it will lean you more toward that onyx finish youíre looking for, using black patina.

Let me know how it turns out!

Sav


#24 sass

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 03:46 PM

Would dish soap and warm water to clean after patina be acceptable to neutralize?

#25 Savant

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 04:18 PM

QUOTE(sass @ May 15 2008, 01:46 PM) View Post
Would dish soap and warm water to clean after patina be acceptable to neutralize?

No.

Baking soda is made from: sodium bicarbonate.
Bicarbonates and or sodium hydrogen carbonates are decomposed by acids; the acid is neutralized by this specific sodium base and carbon dioxide is given off, thus; neutralizing the acid. wonít work.

Sav


#26 Theresa

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 10:38 PM

Sav, thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions!! I have more!! LOL


I probably did buff too much, I used baking soda when I cleaned after soldering to remove flux but not after the patina. I'm afraid to patina it again because my zinc turned out awesome, I used pure acetone on it before the patina and OMG it looks like it was painted. Will applying the solder patina affect the zinc patina?? (I'm giving the panel as a gift so I wanted them to have the option of framing it or just using the zinc as a frame.)
If it does mess with the zinc patina can I just give the panel a baking soda wash, now, to neutralize the patina??

What is the best patina for black? I've heard good things about Jax, but I've only used Novacan. Is there a difference in their black??


Thanks!!

#27 Rebecca

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 08:30 AM

Actually, since baking soda is abrasive I wouldn't use it after patina. It can scrub the patina back off. Just use a commercial neutralizer. An ammonia solution will neutralize also, but can leave calcium precipitate if your water is hard. Even Dawn and water will work if you wash VERY, VERY well. It won't neutralize so much as just get rid of all the patina.

Rebecca

#28 Savant

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 06:41 PM

QUOTE(Theresa @ May 15 2008, 08:38 PM) View Post
Sav, thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions!! I have more!! LOL


I probably did buff too much, I used baking soda when I cleaned after soldering to remove flux but not after the patina.
thatís ok! You will dail it in the more ya do! Aside from commercial flux remover, Any good glass cleaner will work, vinegar and water, or a combination of dish soap and baking soda will Remove flux residue.
It is very important to neutralize the acid with soda water immediately after you patina.
You only missed one stepÖno biggie.


I'm afraid to patina it again because my zinc turned out awesome, I used pure acetone on it before the patina and OMG it looks like it was painted.
Removing that oil from zinc is key. Glad youíre pleased.Will applying the solder patina affect the zinc patina??
No! It will not cause adverse effects.
(I'm giving the panel as a gift so I wanted them to have the option of framing it or just using the zinc as a frame.)
If it does mess with the zinc patina can I just give the panel a baking soda wash, now, to neutralize the patina??
Yes! If you didnít neutralize the patina yet, all you need to do is make the soda water and pour it on. No need to rub it on.

What is the best patina for black? I've heard good things about Jax, but I've only used Novacan. Is there a difference in their black??
Patina can vary greatly according to manufacturer, so it is a good idea to experiment with different brads and find what you like best. 8 oz is the smallest available container size for patina.

They all contain nitric acid, and are very corrosive (that's why they work) rubber gloves and eye protection is highly advised!!! The trick to black patina (aside from youíre project being very clean) is also speed.
You want to get it on and off as quickly as possible. Even with preiwaxing, letting it sit to long WILL etch/stain the glass.



Sav


#29 kjt

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 12:04 PM

Well I thought I was safe with the patina and using glass stainers...not so. I just did a piece and all the painted pieces on the painted side ended up with a slight iridescent haze. The main painted piece ended up with a slight whitish haze over it. It didn't ruin the piece, and it is not really that noticeable but I would prefer not to have it there. I tried vinegar to remove it, but it did nothing. I am almost to the point of not using patina at all with painted pieces. Is the Novacan stain remover worth trying?

Any thoughts?

Kev

#30 MillenniumArtGlass

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 08:56 PM

HI. I wrote a BIG article on my website about this. You should read it! I have several years of experience and did a LOT of research.

www.fruitcratelabels.com/art-glass.html Follow these few pages. -- Pat

millenniumartglass.com


#31 MillenniumArtGlass

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 07:52 PM

I received an email today that the above link does not work. I checked it, and it worked for me. Let me re-enter it here and see if it works in the future. I have been off the forum for some time, as the economy has kept me from much glass work. Last year I studied for a week with Peter McGrain and then a week with Raphael Schnepf. Did about nine pieces with them. I have all these pages and descriptions of techniques on my glass web site. Here are the two links. Let me know if you run into problems. Thanks!! -- Pat

http://www.fruitcrat.../art-glass.html

and

http://www.millenniumartglass.com

#32 Chantal

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 09:55 AM

I've been patina'ing my glass painted pieces without harm to the Reusche paint.

I apply ("paint") the patina with a #3 paintbrush, it turns really black right away, and I rinse it off, apply neutralizer, rinse again, IMMEDIATELY after I'm done applying the patina. I do the painted side last to reduce exposure.

SUCCESS!

#33 Rebecca

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 02:46 PM

I put patina on one panel with some painting. I put Contact paper over the painted portion while I applied the patina and neutralized it.

Rebecca

#34 Chantal

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 04:25 PM

You may not need to bother with contact paper...

#35 Rebecca

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 05:24 PM

You may not need to bother with contact paper...


Why not? I slosh patina on and rinse off quickly.

Rebecca

#36 Chantal

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 09:15 AM

It's not necessary?

I either slosh it on straight (if a lot of close lead lines) or paint it on (if the lead lines are far apart, and like you, rinse and neutralize immediately after. It doesn't affect the paint at all... I wonder why it does for some people!

#37 Rebecca

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 11:24 AM

I don't know. I wouldn't think that patina would hurt glass paint and was skeptical when I first read this thread. But when it came to actually doing it, I was afraid to chance it.

Rebecca

#38 Dawnt

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 02:41 PM

The ONLY time I've ever had patina hurt the paint was when I applied the paint too dry and thin with airbrush, AND probably underfired. I was trying to get a very light natural skin tone without gloss. If the paint hadn't come off with patina, it probably would have during clean-up. I don't think the patina "dissolving" paint thing holds water, personally. I slosh patina all over, not to mention cleaning products, whiting and waxes, and properly applied and fired paint isn't affected at all.

#39 Fox

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 04:02 PM

The ONLY time I've ever had patina hurt the paint was when I applied the paint too dry and thin with airbrush, AND probably underfired. I was trying to get a very light natural skin tone without gloss. If the paint hadn't come off with patina, it probably would have during clean-up. I don't think the patina "dissolving" paint thing holds water, personally. I slosh patina all over, not to mention cleaning products, whiting and waxes, and properly applied and fired paint isn't affected at all.

Having read this forum, and having had a small piece not turn out well (for artistic rather than technical reasons) I decided to slop Novacan all over it and "erase" the whole thing. Not a chance: I didn't leave the patina on overnight or anything, but as it was,it had no effect whatsoever. I mixed the paint (black tracing) thick, and probably (due to the nature of my kiln) fired it somewhat higher than the recommended 1240 -50: I think that problems might well be due to under-firing. (This aside, I still take care applying the patina -- better safe than sorry).




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