Jump to content


Photo

Acid Etching


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 Mickjay

Mickjay

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlevoix, Michigan
  • Interests:Art, History, Law and Good German recipes and Bier.

Posted 25 March 2008 - 12:48 PM

I am plugging away at etching text onto glass and had or have a dumb ?. With acid etching, the glass turns darker where it is etched (from Behind). Should I only use lighter shades of transparent cathedral glass where I wish to letter? I thought I'd ask before I did my layout and found the lettering too dark. I wanted to sand blast it, but time constraints have me limited to acid.

Help...
Mickjay
Charlevoix, MI

#2 Guest_Savant_*

Guest_Savant_*
  • Guests

Posted 25 March 2008 - 07:08 PM

QUOTE(Mickjay @ Mar 25 2008, 10:48 AM) View Post
I am plugging away at etching text onto glass and had or have a dumb ?. With acid etching, the glass turns darker where it is etched (from Behind). Should I only use lighter shades of transparent cathedral glass where I wish to letter? I thought I'd ask before I did my layout and found the lettering too dark. I wanted to sand blast it, but time constraints have me limited to acid.

Help...
Mickjay
Charlevoix, MI


Hi Mickjay,

Yes! Aside from clear, you want to use very pale cathedrals.
For example…Spectrum’s smooth rolled: the (pale purple solid transparent).



For the most visual contrast, do the etching on the view side!
Any opal mix will detract from the matt finish of the etching.

Here is spectrums glass product list.




Not a dumb question at all.

Sav


#3 Mickjay

Mickjay

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlevoix, Michigan
  • Interests:Art, History, Law and Good German recipes and Bier.

Posted 25 March 2008 - 09:20 PM

Thanks Sav,

I spoke w/ Ads and came to the idea of flash glass. The HFA kinda scares me though. I think I am going to shelve the project until I can use my bead blaster. I have worked a long time in the maritime industry and God only knows what stuff we have all been exposed to over the years. I don't need to add HFA fumes to the list. The bad part about it is I like the look of it. Tempting beauty often is the most dangerous.

Thanks Again

Mick J
Charlevoix, MI

#4 Boris_USA

Boris_USA

    Lampman

  • Assistant Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,611 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eastern Shore of Maryland USA
  • Interests:Way too Many...

Posted 25 March 2008 - 09:44 PM

QUOTE(Mickjay @ Mar 25 2008, 10:20 PM) View Post
Thanks Sav,

The HFA kinda scares me though.


As much of the acids I keep on hand, I have been carefull as I can be, and afraid of the stuff enough to respect it very much, and have had no problems, yet it can happen and be so fast, even care will not help. We just had a worker that was setting down a 5 gallon container of HFA /Sulfuric mixture, and it dropped a little hard, splashing out and all over his leg. The water flusher was right there, and he used it right away, but it still burned him enough to have to take treatments for some time. A reminder that one has to thing ahead all the time, for safety. Use lids on containers, handle them with care, use eye protection and rubber gloves, and acid proof aprons, w/ acid proof footwear, and have a water flushing system within hands reach. Seconds are critical. Acids are not forgiving. Acid fumes can also be very toxic and even deadly. Be Aware. Know what your using and what it can do....

#5 Ads

Ads

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 128 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Wales, UK

Posted 26 March 2008 - 09:45 AM

I occasionally use HF and it scares me to death!
I always make sure to wear wellies, boiler suit, rubber apron, gauntlet gloves in thick rubber (with 2 thinner pairs of gloves underneath) hair tied back in a headscarf and a full face visor and an acid mask because I have no fume cabinet. Absolutely no skin showing. You have to concentrate the whole time, treat it with utmost respect & make sure there's someone around (at a safe distance) who knows what to do if an accident should occur (without contaminating themselves). Also I have the calcium gluconate gel on standby just in case.
If you are going to use it then make sure to check gloves for pinprick holes as that's one of the main ways even safe HF users can be injured. But I wouldn't advise trying it without being shown by someone who is skilled at using it & can show you safe decontaminating processes etc.
The worst thing about HF is that you can't always tell if you've got it on you- it has a delayed effect & by the time you feel it it's too late.
Not wanting to scare anyone! :)

Incidentally I was wondering about acid paste that's used for creating sandblast effect. When I use it I use similar precautions to above as my brand has a big list of warnings and contains some HF. I can't work out if I'm being over cautious as I've read instructions in a couple of books where the illustrating photo shows someone just using thin latex gloves and wearing a short sleeved t-shirt. How dangerous is it?

#6 Mickjay

Mickjay

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlevoix, Michigan
  • Interests:Art, History, Law and Good German recipes and Bier.

Posted 26 March 2008 - 11:53 AM

QUOTE(Ads @ Mar 26 2008, 09:45 AM) View Post
Incidentally I was wondering about acid paste that's used for creating sandblast effect. When I use it I use similar precautions to above as my brand has a big list of warnings and contains some HF. I can't work out if I'm being over cautious as I've read instructions in a couple of books where the illustrating photo shows someone just using thin latex gloves and wearing a short sleeved t-shirt. How dangerous is it?


Addy, I had used the paste years ago and never had any problems w/ it. I do agree w/ the glove / prick hole comment. The paste I believe is safer as it's geared toward the hobbiest vs. industrial applications. While it has HFA in it, I believe the molarity is lower and since it's a paste form its not as prone to leakage, spillage and splashing. The bottom line, as you and everyone else are aware of, Acid is acid. Ketones, toulene and spirits and almost all cleaners should be treated the same. I worked in a nitriding furnace and used perchlorethyene (sp?) nasty stuff. The whole system was superheated, supercooled to controls vapors etc... The guys that used to clean the system used citric acid. Yep, concentrated orange juice. So, next time you see that t-shirted latexed gloved guy on the package, remember that it's an illustration and he probably isn't even using the real thing. Safer is safer. I am surprised that I have both my eyes, limited chemical burns and the use of my lungs after all the "yuck" I had been exposed through 9 years in the Coast Guard.

Thanks for the posts Guyz...

MJ
Charlevoix, MI

p.s. The darn thing is...Your flash glass is sooooo beautiful with the HFA. Tempting... dangerous... beauty. I guess it's the choice we make.

#7 Guest_Savant_*

Guest_Savant_*
  • Guests

Posted 26 March 2008 - 01:14 PM

Mickjay,

If you do decide to use flashed glass, I suggest you sandblast!
Don’t even entertain using Hydrogen Fluoride. Bad stuff! :- o
That’s why I suggested the Diamond Head Inland glass engraver. It’s safe and easy. It’s like using an aggressive pencil on steroids. You can use it on any glass, including thin coat flashed.

Etching Cream:

In paste form, “Armour etching cream ®”is the only product I ever suggest using for small etchings, as the hydrofluoric acid in armour etch is slightly neutralized with (ZN). That’s why it’s available to the general public. Again…it won’t work on flashed.
It only dulls the surface of the glass when left on for 3 minuets.

Concentrated Acid:

Concentrated (HF) is the only chemical that will dissolve the top color flashing of glass. If left to set, it will eat clean through the glass.
You have good reason to be kind of scared. Be very scared!
A co-worker of mine and myself were subjected to chemical lung burns
while using concentrated (HF) in 85. Another guy lost his left eye.
Hydrofluoric acid hit his apron at the chest and splashed up under his face shield.
We irrigated his eyes with mass quantities of water, we tried to keep his eyelid away from his eyeball during irrigation and also used ophthalmic anesthetic for his pain. Traumatic is an understatement! He lost his eye.
Even professionals get hurt with this extreme poison.
Also…calcium gluconate gel must be massaged into the burned area or it won’t work!

(HF) was used during WWI as a German chemical warfare agent, and is also an optional chemical weapon of war by third world countries today, if that tells you anything.


Abrasive:

Glass bead will not cut glass! It won’t work on flashed glass either. You should ask the powers that be, at work, if you can use aluminum oxide as an abrasive in the blast both. If you decide to go that route. Of course it will contaminate the bead bin with aluminum oxide. Stencil cutting is another issue in its own! And that’s a lot of text you have to do if you plan to cut it all out by hand.

What size do you plan on making the text, ¼” high or so?
Let me know, and I may have a very easy solution for you’re stencils!



The stars were done by sandblasting flashed glass.


Sav

#8 Mickjay

Mickjay

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlevoix, Michigan
  • Interests:Art, History, Law and Good German recipes and Bier.

Posted 26 March 2008 - 09:08 PM

Thanks for the input Sav. Yeah, bead blaster is the generic term we use at work. Its not a true "bead" blaster just a fancy enclosed sand blaster. I've shot bead, walnut shell and 8/12 blasting grit with it. Pretty versatile. I would use aluminum oxide.
I am shying away from the HFA. Funny how something so beautiful is so dangerous. I like the engraver on steriod concept. $ is strapped right now as work is just starting up again. (layoffs...Lakes freeze, boats stop and so does my $ flow).
The text is not an issue as I am pretty good w/ freehand exacto and since I am laid off I have plenty of time. One ? is a good resist. Cutting corners before, I used contact paper. Not my choice but it was handy and if it was burnished it gave adequate results. Any good sources of a quality resist paper?

Thanks Again...

MJ

p.s. You always have great input. I am glad you joined SGTS...


#9 Guest_Savant_*

Guest_Savant_*
  • Guests

Posted 27 March 2008 - 09:16 PM

Mickjay,

Yes, Yes…you can use shelve liner/contact paper. Just make sure you check the thickness!
If it’s 4mm thick, apply four sheets. You will need a minimum of 15mm thick to remove the flashing without having any abrasive breakthrough, “pitting”.
Just so you know, in a late night pinch, I’ve even use clear lamination.
Got it from the office supply section at Fred Meyers!
It worked just fine!

Also, most sign shops carry vinyl contact paper for sandblasting. Again check the thickness.

I use 8mm “Fasson” resist sheets and double it up for a total of 16mm on all blasted work.
Use a minimum of two sheets for blasting off the color flash on flashed glass.
Two sheets it standard.
One sheet alone makes all aspects of stencil cutting, weeding and removal, almost impossible.
I use “Buttercut” for deep carving. I order direct from Fasson Products,
but most stained glass suppliers carry sandblast resist.

happy to here you decided against the hydro.

PS
You’re welcome!

Sav


#10 Ads

Ads

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 128 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Wales, UK

Posted 02 April 2008 - 03:49 AM

Came across this from a recent (published 1999) SG book, with advice on using HF acid, (including diluting from concentrated) which scares me more than a little in its blase approach:
"Always wear protective glasses and an old shirt or long plastic apron when handling acids....Avoid splashing at all costs and have a bucket of water close at hand to plunge your hands into in case some acid accidentally drips on them: the acid will start reacting to your skin in approximately 30 seconds so you have a little time. Obviously you should avoid splashing acid on your glasses, let alone into your eyes, however, if this does happen, rinse your eyes with running water and seek medical help. The main advice I can give is that if you are relaxed and sensible about handling acid there is little danger"
Not as scary as the very very old Christopher Whall book which as far as I can remember, more or less tells you to not make a fuss and run your burnt arm under a cold tap!

#11 Mickjay

Mickjay

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlevoix, Michigan
  • Interests:Art, History, Law and Good German recipes and Bier.

Posted 02 April 2008 - 05:18 AM

QUOTE(Ads @ Apr 2 2008, 03:49 AM) View Post
The main advice I can give is that if you are relaxed and sensible about handling acid there is little danger"
Not as scary as the very very old Christopher Whall book which as far as I can remember, more or less tells you to not make a fuss and run your burnt arm under a cold tap!


Yepper Addy, I agree. Anything like this should always be respected and not feared. I think the Whall book was not trying to be so laid back but only wanted you to "keep your head" instead of flipping out which most people would do if they thought would look like a piece of Swiss cheese. Don't get me wrong. I will try HF, only once I came tame it somewhere practical. I love the look. It's awesome.

Mickjay
Charlevoix, MI.





#12 Tod Beall

Tod Beall

    Daily Mirror Owner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,632 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Massachusetts just west of Brimfield
  • Interests:Mostly flat glass. I started with sg over 30 years ago. I also collect books about sg. Please visit Beall Glass Studio on Face Book.

Posted 02 April 2008 - 09:18 AM

Gene Mallard gave a presentation at last year's AGG conference. It was simply mind-blowing. He is an incredible master of the art and craft.
He's going to be back this year (Phiadelphia) talking about setting up a safe aciding station:

http://www.americang.....e Mallard.htm

- Tod

BTW: When I was younger and stupider, my partner in crime and I acid etched some glass in his studio. We set the acid tray on a shelf on a window sill with two fans blowing the fumes outside. We managed to kill about a dozen potted plants in the studio anyway!
Moral: Beware and be careful. Go see Gene's presentation.

#13 Mickjay

Mickjay

    Homeowner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlevoix, Michigan
  • Interests:Art, History, Law and Good German recipes and Bier.

Posted 02 April 2008 - 10:00 AM

Thanx Todd, I'll check it out...Humorous! Its amazing we all haven't been maimed or have lived to this ripe old age. Natural selection I guess...

MJ

#14 Tod Beall

Tod Beall

    Daily Mirror Owner

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,632 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Massachusetts just west of Brimfield
  • Interests:Mostly flat glass. I started with sg over 30 years ago. I also collect books about sg. Please visit Beall Glass Studio on Face Book.

Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:00 AM

QUOTE(Mickjay @ Apr 2 2008, 11:00 AM) View Post
Thanx Todd, I'll check it out...Humorous! Its amazing we all haven't been maimed or have lived to this ripe old age. Natural selection I guess...

MJ


Amen to that, Brother!

#15 Knight

Knight

    Community Leader

  • Glasser
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 270 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ohio, US
  • Interests:Art, nature, cooking vegetarian, listening to vinyl, and my Love.

Posted 19 November 2014 - 12:06 PM

I have some etching to do, I use the creme  (Armor Etch, or what ever I have on hand) I have experienced "crystals" forming in the cream. I went out and purchased a brand new jar at the hobby store and it contained the "crystals" as well. I will be doing large surfaces with a hand cut stencil and can not afford the cream damaging the stencil or causing a spotty etch. I have heard that you can warm the cream to reduce the crystals......has anyone encountered this? My experience with the etching creme is on the elementary level, I try to avoid using it and have sandblasting as a back up. The effect the customer is looking for is really an etch instead of a blast, so here I am with my ??



#16 Keniol

Keniol

    New Neighbour

  • Glasser
  • PipPip
  • 45 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London U.K
  • Interests:art,animation,cinema,culture,cycling,food, graphics novels,Japan,music,nature,reading...

Posted 07 January 2019 - 01:22 PM

Hi there,

Enyone have the idea,

what strength of the hydrofluoric acid should be used for flash glass?

Thank you.



#17 Boris_USA

Boris_USA

    Lampman

  • Assistant Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,611 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eastern Shore of Maryland USA
  • Interests:Way too Many...

Posted 31 January 2019 - 09:40 PM

Hi there,

Enyone have the idea,

what strength of the hydrofluoric acid should be used for flash glass?

Thank you.

 

If you have to ask that question, do you know about that acid? That's one of the worse acids one can encounter, and is absorbed into the skin and destroys the calcium in the cells. It also has a anesthetic quality that numbs the burning and you don't know what damage your doing. It also gives off toxic fumes in purer qualities. Nasty stuff and has killed from spills on the body, and caused amputations.
 



#18 Keniol

Keniol

    New Neighbour

  • Glasser
  • PipPip
  • 45 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London U.K
  • Interests:art,animation,cinema,culture,cycling,food, graphics novels,Japan,music,nature,reading...

Posted 10 February 2019 - 01:21 PM

If you have to ask that question, do you know about that acid? That's one of the worse acids one can encounter, and is absorbed into the skin and destroys the calcium in the cells. It also has a anesthetic quality that numbs the burning and you don't know what damage your doing. It also gives off toxic fumes in purer qualities. Nasty stuff and has killed from spills on the body, and caused amputations.
 

Thanks, Boris, I know its super dangerous I ordered the Dick Millard book and I'll read before I'll touch that stuff. If I could avoid to use it I would, but the project demands it, and I can't really achieve desire effect without it.



#19 Boris_USA

Boris_USA

    Lampman

  • Assistant Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,611 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eastern Shore of Maryland USA
  • Interests:Way too Many...

Posted 13 February 2019 - 09:05 PM

Thanks, Boris, I know its super dangerous I ordered the Dick Millard book and I'll read before I'll touch that stuff. If I could avoid to use it I would, but the project demands it, and I can't really achieve desire effect without it.

 


I use it, and have for years, but I know what dangers there are, and if you have an accidental spill  on you, if its a in a good amount it can cause amputations, instant blinding if splashed in the eyes or can even  can kill you.  Before you even attempt to use it, keep a water supply handy, baking soda, and the Gel mentioned above.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users